A Rebuttal

Here is an article that was posted as a poll on a Silencer forum of all places. The poll was, "In light of the situation in the story do you let the mother die? Kill the baby? or let God decide?"

Remember this is about an Ectopic pregnancy.

If you don't know what an Ectopic pregnancy is check this out before reading this post:

Ectopic Pregnancy



Doctors fight no-abortion policy By TRACI CARL, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 28 minutes ago MANAGUA, Nicaragua - Two weeks after Olga Reyes danced at her wedding, her bloated and disfigured body was laid to rest in an open coffin — the victim, her husband and some experts say, of Nicaragua's new no-exceptions ban on abortion. Reyes, a 22-year-old law student, suffered an ectopic pregnancy. The fetus develops outside the uterus, cannot survive and causes bleeding that endangers the mother. But doctors seemed afraid to treat her because of the anti-abortion law, said husband Agustin Perez. By the time they took action, it was too late. Nicaragua last year became one of 35 countries that ban all abortions, even to save the life of the mother, according to the Center for Reproductive Rights in New York. The ban has been strictly followed, leaving the country torn between a strong tradition of women's rights and a growing religious conservatism. Abortion rights groups have stormed Congress in recent weeks demanding change, but President Daniel Ortega, a former leftist revolutionary and a Roman Catholic, has refused to oppose the church-supported ban. Evangelical groups and the church say abortion is never needed now because medical advances solve the complications that might otherwise put a pregnant mother's life at risk. But at least three women have died because of the ban, and another 12 reported cases will be examined, said gynecologist and university researcher Eliette Valladares, who is working with the Pan American Health Organization to analyze deaths of pregnant women recorded by Nicaragua's Health Ministry. Before the ban took effect on Nov. 18, 2006, fewer than a dozen legal abortions were recorded per year in Nicaragua. They were performed only when three doctors agreed a woman's life was in danger. However, the Roman Catholic Church estimates that doctors and other medical staff carried out about 36,000 "secret" abortions a year, because under the old law they had little fear of government reprisals. This year the Health Ministry has recorded 84 deaths of pregnant women between January and October, compared with 89 for all of last year and 88 the year before. It listed hemorrhaging as the most common cause, with 27 cases reported. The ministry refused to comment further on the ban. Abortion rights groups have disrupted Congress several times, demanding that lawmakers lift the ban. On Oct. 25, unable to get past increased security, they held up signs at Congress' front door that read: "Women assassins" and "They want to keep us quiet and dead." A minority of lawmakers are still trying to lift the ban, but don't have enough votes. The Roman Catholic Church mobilized nearly 300,000 people to march and sign petitions in support of the ban. "A child is not a sickness," said Henry Romero, a priest who helped lead the campaign. "When two lives are in danger, you must try to save both the woman and the child. It's difficult to say now that it isn't possible to save both." Law student Reyes was one of the three confirmed fatalities. She knew something was horribly wrong, and went with her husband to their small town's medical center. They were sent to Bertha Calderon maternity hospital, more than an hour away in Managua. There, Perez said, Reyes was given a cursory exam, sent home and told to return the next day. By that time, the bleeding and cramping were worse. Perez said he rushed her to a hospital in nearby Leon, but after she had an ultrasound that confirmed her condition, they left her bent over and in agony for hours in a waiting room. When a doctor at a shift change saw her condition, she was rushed into surgery. She suffered three heart attacks and an exploratory surgery. Valladares said doctors should have acted quicker. "They knew she had a limited amount of time before she bled out. The whole world knows that with an ectopic pregnancy," Valladares said. "They didn't treat her, out of fear." The hospital director, Olga Maria de Chavez, said Reyes arrived late at night, and was told to return the next morning when specialists were available. The doctors who handled her case in Leon refused to talk to The Associated Press. Walter Mendiata, president of Nicaragua's Association of Gynecologists and a supporter of the abortion ban, said doctors are taking the new law too far. He argues that surgery for an ectopic pregnancy isn't the same as carrying out an abortion. "There's no discussion in a case like that," he said. "It's urgent, and you operate." But he acknowledged that many doctors fear they will be accused of performing an abortion, which could mean a license suspension and several years in prison, even though no one has yet been prosecuted. Some doctors privately admit to carrying out what they believe are illegal procedures, while others say they won't jeopardize their careers. "Many are thinking that instead of taking the risk, it is better to let a woman die," said Dr. Leonel Arguello, president of the Nicaraguan Society of General Medicine. Doctors frequently see women coming in with infections, many likely brought on by illegal abortions that they refuse to disclose for fear they might be punished, said Dr. Carla Cerrato. Because the people with some medical training who used to do illegal abortions have disappeared, Cerrato said, women more frequently take drugs or pull the fetus out on their own using wires or other crude objects. "What we are seeing are complications that before we never saw," Cerrato said, sitting in the dingy pre-labor room at a crowded public hospital in Managua. She added that she sees hysterectomies and severe infections that leave women sterile or dead because obstetricians can't take any action that might harm a living fetus. "We have to wait until the fetus dies," she said. "But often, for the woman, it's too late." That appears to be what happened with Reyes. Her aunt, Gioconda Reyes, a devoted Catholic dressed in a worn T-shirt in which Jesus promises eternal life, said the sudden death has changed her views. "I don't support abortion to get rid of unwanted pregnancies, but in cases like that of Olga's, it is necessary," she said, adding: "How could they let four days pass when every minute was precious? They denied her the right to medical care, to a life."


What is the right answer?

The forum had already had ten pages of debate and I read all ten of them. The conversation had digressed from a discussion over Ectopic abortion to abortion in general. The mud slinging was at an all time high and no one was bringing into the picture larger things of life. Every argument that was being made was made based off of a post modern "well I think" mentality. There was no sure footing to any statements made. So I made this post.

I am astounded at all the intellectual debate that goes on on a Suppressor forum! I am glad that people are thinking about these things!

My answer to the poll is one that was not listed. Try to save both. The chance of an ectopic happening is very small, but when it does it is very dangerous. In this situation the right thing would have been for the doctors to save the mother. Right now you cant save both in an ectopic but we can still keep trying to find out how.

Science tells us that ectopic pregnancies left unatended end in severe damage or death to the mother and science tells us that the baby needs the mother for survival, logic says it makes no sense for both to die.

The issue with conservatives and libs over abortion is not over ectopic pregnancies...I wish it were, because we would not be having this poll.

The issue is that of elective abortions. The vast majority of people having abortions are those who were either too young to know the risk of premarital sex, young risk takers who didn't think they could get pregnant, those suspected to have downs syndrome baby, middle to upper class people who would be inconvenienced financially by the presence of a child, or women who are pressured by their partners.

I mention this one last, because, from a medical standpoint, most elective abortions are done because one of the partners is unwilling to accept the fact that they will have to give up some toys and time to have a child. I spoke with one of our women at our church who works at a crisis pregnancy center, and was surprised to find out that 70% of the women they see are not hoed out teenagers sleeping with every guy and his dad. Most are educated middle class working women who feel pressure from their husbands or boyfriends to take all measures to "not have the burden right now." (her words) Suspected Down Syndrome children account for another large chunk.

The story that is in this post is a prime example used by abortion supporters today. They make these stories sound as if they happen everyday...it is just smoke and mirrors. That story does not defend the case for abortion, all the story does is tell us the reality of ectopic pregnancies and that we live in a world where bad things happen.

Elective abortion is simply a symptom of what the real problem is. Like RSILVERS wrote, you can outlaw abortion but it wont stop abortion. Back alley abortion proves that. But why is that? Why cant legislation stop human action?

Gentlemen, I state that abortion will always remain (as much as I hate it) because men are full of sin. There it is... I said it. I know it is not a popular message today, but I am just the messenger. In fact I am just stating something that has already been said for a long time. The Bible states "For all men have fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23 "There is no man righteous, no not even one! There is no one who seeks after God, there is no one good. There is no fear of God before there eyes." Romans 3:10

We are depraved, sin filled human beings. We came into this world knowing how to sin! Think back to when you were a kid. No one had to tell you how to lie or steal. No one had to teach you to hate someone, or to be unfair. No, we had to be taught to share and to be kind. To tell the truth and work for what you get. We had to be taught the building blocks of life and orderly society. David writes in Psalm 51 that we are "born in sin."

Hang with me...we are going deeper.

Now I know some of you have brushed this off already as some fundamental, crazy conservative religious freak talk...if so...oh well. But I think the message of scripture is clear and logical on this subject of abortion. The subject boils down to the "sanctity of human life." Now I parenthesized this because one's authority for saying what is sanctified concerning human life is determined by where you think humanity came from. Here are two examples:

1. If God exist and God created the world and all things in the world, then you believe that God created humanity as well. Now if we stop for a minute and look at the complexity of the things around us, (think about tree rings, orbiting planets, human heart, DNA replication, human eyball, procreation,and the list could go on forever), we will see something that has driven scientist crazy... Irreducible complexity. This term states that the amount of order in this universe is more than what a big bang could produce. Many of you may know about Stephen Hawking, even he states that just the expansion rate of the universe alone is so perfect that even an infinite amount of years could not cause what we see around us to happen. So instead of saying that God created the order of the things around us, he says that there are an infinite number of universes. Basically, the chance of all this coming about by one big bang is too perfect for science to believe, so they theorize that there have been infinite universes (aka parallel universe) so that the theory of Evolution could be seen as plausible. This is called the Anthropic Principle.

Ok, back to subject. We see irreducible complexity around us, and this complexity leads us to seek how God is involved with this universe. The logic goes as follows (1) There is a lot of really cool stuff around me (2) Matter does not create it self, so something brought it about (first cause) (3) If the first cause took the effort and time to create, can I assume that the first cause has nothing to do with that creation anymore? No.

Many people will say that God created all the stuff and left us alone(Deism). Nice try. This is a ploy to try and get away from the responsibility, morally and socially of the implications of a God involved with his creation (involved in judging sin, rewarding the faithful). This is a half baked answer to the questions, "where did all this come from?" and "How can I live the way I want too."

The bible asserts that God "in the beginning" created everything including man and said it was VERY good (Genesis 1). Scripture also states that man was "created in the image of God." This is why it is considered sin to murder someone, not just because it is a good idea for society, but because that person was created and fashioned to reflect the glory of God. This is the Christians foundation for "sanctity of human life."

2. Evolution. Not Evilution. I don't want anyone to post a reply to this saying that I hate evolutionist. I don't. I just do not think that the worldview of evolution stands up to scientific fact or logic. Evolution states that matter existed and that after a huge explosion and massive amount of time, life formed and evolved (natural selection, mutation, and genetic drift and flow) in complexity to where we are now. That is a simple explanation, but it does have some problems that many scientist and philosophers find troublesome. Evolution cannot explain one of the most basic principles of origin...Where did the dot that exploded come from? In other words, where did the matter that we see come from? If you listen hard enough you will hear silence (which is why you are on this forum in the first place, couldn't help myself lol). There is no answer. In fact, one of the most established laws of science itself in the laws of Thermodynamics states "matter can neither be created, nor destroyed." If it cannot be created, then how did it get here?

(By the way both Christians and evolutionist know that Natural selection (Aka micro evolution) is a fact. So does any cow herder or dog breeder. Christians and Evolutionist just point to different conclusions. If you want to discuss natural selection just email or pm me...)

This is deep stuff, and to most of us common day people, we don't really care because it does not seem to affect us. Who cares if some scientist in Australia looks at the stars above and sees evolution and not God...my paycheck is not more, my car does not break down less, my kids still scream and fight...what do I care?

We should care because everything from Humanity as a whole, all the way to family and individual people are affected by what other people believe. As Chuck Colson states, "ideas have consequences." The scientists in the white ivory towers are the ones who are consulted when your kids read their science manuals. Now I was a seventh grader once, and my teacher did not teach me the logical end to an evolutionist worldview. But as I grew the questions of where I came from grew. I remember thinking as an 11th grader that if evolution is true there is no need for God, there is no higher power than man. My logic then asked, "If man is the highest there is when it comes to authority, who can say something is right or wrong?" It ended up me concluding that whoever has the bigger guns and better silencers and baddest scope says whats true...because he can just kill anyone who disagrees with him.

Now if the image of Hitler is not entering your head, it should be. Now I am not saying that evolutionist are Hitlers. Most evolutionist are just simply inconsistent evolutionist. In fact if you read Mein Kampf you see Hitler was more consistent in his idea of Entwicklung than Evolutionist today. He at least recognized those who were "dragging down" society and tried to get rid of them. Why aren't evolutionist today this way? Why don't evolutionist euthanize all the old people? They cost way too much money. Why don't we abort all the babies that are suspected of being Downs Syndrome affected? Oh wait...we do. In, fact 97% of every Down Syndrome suspected child is aborted. (Now why do I say "suspected?" I say this because they cannot be 100% positive. I don't know if any of you have had kids or ever seen the screening process they do for this but I have. I just had a son back in August and we became familiar with the process. Don't get me wrong, the technology is phenomenal, but that technology has consequences in the minds of sinful men and women.)
Sorry, back to subject. So if evolution is true and survival of the fittest is true then why do we do anything to help anyone? Why do we do anything that inconveniences us? Why don't we kill our kids when they scream at us? Why do the suppressor manufacturers go out of their way to help someone who messed up? Why don't they say, "tough luck, sucks for you!?" Why don't we just run over people in the parking lot when they are making us late for work? Why don't we just make as many nukes as possible and blow every other country away and in thirty years have as much land and oil as we want?

Granted these sound extreme, but if you send your kid or go yourself to the department of Bioethics at Princeton University, you may hear teachers such as Peter Singer gives some ideas that sound this extreme. For those of you who do not think that ideas have consequences, here is a real life example. (I do tip my hat to the fact that Peter Singer is a consistent and intellectually honest evolutionist) Peter Singer holds the evolutionist maxim that man has the same worth as an animal. He defends this staunchly. This is what Evolution teaches. He has even suggested, as someone in this thread reflected on earlier, that children even after birth, if not wanted, can be killed. If you don't want your two year old, and that two year old cannot effectively communicate that he or she wants to keep on living, kill them. I am not kidding. Read his work.

Evolution in the end not only has logical and scientific holes, it shreds the moral fabric that society needs to maintain order.

So just in case someone thinks "this does not effect me." Yes it does. The only reason the ideas of people like Singer do not take control over night is because God is real and he has created this world with common grace and a sense of right and wrong. But we cannot rely solely on that sense of right and wrong.

The little anecdote of how you boil a frog is perfect at this point. If you take a frog and throw him in a boiling pot, he may get some superficial burns, but he will hop out. However, if you put him in luke warm water and slowly turn up the heat, you can cook him and he will never know. Whether this works in real life I don't know, but the idea is important. Major change takes time. You cant turn a ship on a dime. Take euthanasia of elderly for example. We do not accept today that it is ok for people to euthanise the elderly. Even though they don't contribute to society, many cant talk right and many are so out of their brain you don't even know if they know where they are, we have not come to accept that they should be killed. But what do we do with them? We send them to a nursing home, no brainer. Years ago, this idea was thought of as detestable and stuck up. (if you disagree with me, I will give you my grandma's number...) It was the families duty to take care of the elderly. However, as time moved it was not seen as such a bad thing, and it was justified because the family still sacrificed because they had to pay for the services. Yet many of the elderly grow worse due to the lack of attention (not medically but emotional and societal) Did you see the shift? The principle of devotion to family is being slightly molded and redefined. The shift in maxims is slow and barely perceptible. Our worldview determines not only where we come from but where we are going. I guess it would be true, "to know the past is to know the future."


So, back to abortion. If the problem cannot be solved by legislation, how do we solve it. Again your world view determines you answer. If you are an evolutionist you could answer two ways. It is right because it keeps population down etc, or it is wrong because it is against the proliferation of your own genes. Which evolutionist is right? Who knows...the one with the bigger gun I guess.

The Christian should answer with what the Bible answers. That if sin is why people perform elective abortions, we need to fix sin. Wow...how do you do that? Again the Bible states that we all are sinful. Not only that but that God hates our sin. In fact, we are described as enemies of God; haters of God. We don't want to do what God wants us to do, thus we sin. The situation get even worse, scripture says, "for the wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23. That is bad news. Our sin is detestable before God and he will judge us for it. We are described as cursed. We will not only physically die, but spiritually die in hell because we do not do what God wants us to do.

Some of you right now may be tempted to trivialize sin. Before you do this let me remind you of the good ole Ten Commandments. How many of you have kept all ten? No murdering...good there. No adultery...good there. No stealing...oops, did one time. No lying...um, a few times.

Now this was only four of ten. The bad part is that God says if you break one you have broken them all!!!! What!!! Jesus takes it up a notch. If you look at a woman lustfully you are an adulterer. If you hate you fellow man you are guilty of murder before a holy and righteous God. So now I am a lying, theiving, murdering, adulterer before God. Crap...I am done.

It is true gentlemen, as Ephesians says we are "dead in our trespasses and sins." So where is there hope?

This is where a man on a cross can change the adulterer, the murderer, the liar, the thief, the abortionist himself.

Yes, God sent himself in his son to pay the debt for sin. Just like Romans 6:23 says, "the wages of sin is death," the paycheck we have earned for ourselves is death in this world. But Christ came so that he could pay that debt with his own life. We should have died on the cross, our sin deserved it. But the only perfect man to walk the earth died for us. This isn't some made up fairy tale. The historicity of this event is more sure than most of the history we see in text books. (Again email me, because the amount of data is too much to write)

With this fact, the Bible says men must make a decision about their sin and about Christ. You will either serve sin, or you will serve God. The promise of Christianity is not a life of roses, in fact, it will be met with opposition and persecution from those who are still serving sin. But instead of being an enemy of God you are now ally. You have now come into battle with sin instead of being friends with your sin. But two things are required. No you don't have to climb a mountain to mecca or pray fifty times a day. You have to repent from sin (literally the image is turning 180 degrees from something) and believe Jesus as God died to save you from sin. Then and only then is sin conquered.

Phew!.... That was a lot to spell out but very necessary, because the Christian worldview offers the only sane explanation of how to change someones heart from having an elective abortion... and on top of that to save the mother in an ectopic pregnancy! Christianity offers proper answers to the main questions of life: Where did we come from? What is Wrong? How do we fix it? Where are we going? If we know that the problem is sin then we can then fix it in light of what the Bible says. People must turn from sin and trust that Christ died to take away sin. In fact God is so involved with creation that he loved us enough to provide "a way of escape" for all of us who are slaves to our sin nature. But that escape came with a price, the blood of a perfect man. His son. (Any questions on this please email)

An ectopic pregnancy is also another example of how this humanity is fallen. We were not created (read Genesis1-5) to live in a world with hardship and trouble. God created us to live with ease and to fellowship with him. Our disobedience caused a divide between us and God and we pay the penalty not just by our physical deaths but in many other ways (cancers, losing jobs, fighting with wives, hating coworkers, worry about bills, war) but the Christian does not become blind to the fact that we live in a world affect by our sin. So we must have God guide us through to show us how we should respond to the ectopic pregnancy. Both lives are precious to God, and so we try to save both. But our technology right now is limited and we cannot. And so we also know from scripture that God is ultimately in control and we cannot control everything. We should grieve for that child but know too that God is a God who has shown compassion throughout history...(the ultimate was sending his own son to die for sinners who hated Him so he could save them.)

Elective abortion, Biblically, is wrong. No doubt. A situation like ectopic abortion? In light of our fallen world we sometimes can only cry out to our Father above to save us from our own falleness, first, and as the book of Revelation states, God will soon save Christians from the physical effect of sin too.

Sorry if any of this does not make sense. This is like putting your mouth over a fire hose. I know this is long but I hope contributes to the discussion. Email me if you need me to clarify anything...and if i get bashed...it wont be the first time. This stuff is too important to let slip away.


I had a few responses. Most were encouraging, some were not so much. But I did have one guy respond in a personal email:

"Thank you. I am fighting God right now as an adulterer (pornography addiction) and a thief (over my head in debt). God spoke to me through your words."

This was my prayer in the post. It seemed like it was an insurmountable task to take the situation of abortion and bring it to any kind of logical spiritual conclusion. I struggled but hope that I got it out somehow in a straight manner and did not malign God's scripture or glory.

Praise be to God that he has made his world in such a way that we cannot look past anything, whether small or large, evil or good, and not see a creator and redeemer in it all. What marvelous grace. How much more is that grace is in Christ as saviour and friend.